Matthew Tift talks with Dori Kelner, a mindfulness teacher, yoga teacher, and a long-time member of the Drupal community. She founded Insightful Culture to provide evidence-based wellness practices to those who want a proven method for calming their inner critic and moving through life with greater ease. In this episode, we discuss topics such as:
- Dori's transition from developer to manager to yoga teacher to workplace mindfulness facilitator
- The differences between mindfulness, meditation, and yoga
- How to tell when an organization might be ready to incorporate mindfulness practices into their culture
- Potential goals of a workplace mindfulness program
- Dori's approach to "discovery" when she's working with clients
- The difference between training leaders and training employees
- The Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) method
- The role of metrics in a workplace mindfulness program
Episode Guests
Dori Kelner
Dori is a mindfulness teacher and facilitator. She founded Insightful Culture to provide evidence-based wellness practices to those who want a proven method for calming their inner critic and moving through life with greater ease. Dori teaches yoga and mindfulness meditation to anyone who needs an outlet for stress, a way to quiet that inner critic, or a new perspective on life.
Mentioned in this Episode
Transcript
Transcript
- Matthew Tift:
- It's August 2022, episode 23, Dori Kelner on Workplace Mindfulness Programs. Welcome to Hacking Culture, exploring practices and technologies that contribute to well-being. Hacking Culture is sponsored by Lullabot, and I'm your host, Matthew Tift. Today my guest is Dori Kelner, a mindfulness teacher. She founded Insight Culture to provide evidence-based wellness practices to those who want a proven method for calming their inner critic and moving through life with greater ease. I would like to welcome you onto our show, Dori. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to talk with us.
- Dori Kelner:
- Thank you for having me, Matthew.
- Matthew Tift:
- It's really great to have you, because you are very capable of talking about some of these two worlds that I'm interested in, open-source communities as well as mindfulness programs. And you have a lot of experience with both, and I haven't met many people that share those two same interests. So could you just tell us a little bit about your history in the Drupal community, and then this shift in your career? If that is a correct way to describe it.
- Dori Kelner:
- That's an excellent way to describe it, thanks. Yeah, I have been actually in the tech space since I graduated from college. So that's a long time ago. I was never all that comfortable in a corporate setting. I was always finding that managers had unreasonable expectations of their teams. They expected me to push those expectations onto my teams. And so there wasn't a whole lot of concern about anybody's well-being going on in corporate, at least in the jobs that I had, which were very high stress. I was actually, I started as a coder. I moved into project management and business analysis, and finally as department director of a large research organization. And in no matter what level I was at, I never really had the capacity to help the people who were working with me on my teams. And that really troubled me.
- Dori Kelner:
- So back in, I think 2004, I started, with my partner, a company called Sleight-of-Hand Studios. We're a Drupal agency and photography studio, all things visual and digital. And we still have that company, but I found that even though I thought I was going to be more fulfilled running my own company. At least I could call the shots and take care of my people properly, which I was able to do. They got to a point about 10 years ago where I felt like this really wasn't my life's purpose. And so I started first investigating becoming a yoga teacher. Because I was in the yoga community and I loved it. And I was like, "[inaudible 00:03:32] I just do that? And it'll give me some outlet for all of this, all these thoughts that I'm having."
- Dori Kelner:
- And so I did that, and it really solidified my understanding of how we can take well-being practices and move them into the workplace. And so I started to explore, "What does that really mean? It's way more than yoga. What else could this be?" And I came across mindfulness programs, mindful-leadership programs, and it just resonated so well with me. It's like, "This is something that I could bring to my current tech community, mostly the Drupal community. As a member of that community for so, so many years, I understand the stresses and the challenges that we all face as members of the community, and how an open-source community works." And I thought, "Well, bringing wellness into this community would just be so much more fulfilling for me." So that's how I made the transition. I have a host of certifications now. One from Brown University as a Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction teacher, which took a lot of many, many hundreds of hours to achieve. And also certified by Mindful Leader as a Certified Mindfulness Workplace Facilitator.
- Matthew Tift:
- Wow, that's impressive. You're also a yoga teacher as well?
- Dori Kelner:
- I am. Mostly right now I use yoga when I teach programs. So I'm not teaching in a studio, because I just have so much more on my plate right now.
- Matthew Tift:
- That's very interesting to me, how you have combined these different practices. Could you talk a little bit about how you understand the difference between say yoga, and mindfulness, and a wellness program?
- Dori Kelner:
- Yeah. So there is a difference between mindfulness and the practices. So mindfulness is the action of being in the present moment at all times. And to do so purposefully, and without judging what's going on around you. And that sounds like a really heavy lift. So we have practices that support that, and they break down into formal practices and informal practices. So the formal practices are meditation, and yoga, and mindful walking are all formal practices. And some people also use Tai Chi and other Eastern physical practices in their mindfulness training. And what these practices do is allow us to tap into the neuroscience of how our minds work. So by bringing our minds back into the present moment at all times, whether that is bringing our minds to our breath, or to our body, or to sound in the environment, to continuously notice when we have left the present moment. Where we're maybe ruminating about the past, or thinking about planning stuff for the future. Any of these practices, we can use them to anchor our minds back into the present moment.
- Dori Kelner:
- And we will never always be present. We always have to do that anchoring back to the present all the time. Because our minds are just, they're designed to wander around and keep us out of danger. So as a human on Earth, we're designed to keep ourselves safe. And so that's what our mind is always doing, it's always running around trying to keep us safe. And so when we do these formal practices, it actually starts to rewire some of the thinking in our heads. So it allows us to change the neural connections in the brain, and make those more accessible to us during times of stress, or uncertainty, or challenge in our lives. And then we supplement those practices with daily practices. Which might be journaling, or just noticing where you are at any given time, going out into nature, all sorts of other things that can just keep us grounded.
- Dori Kelner:
- There are different breathworks, different types of breathwork we can do. There's all these other smaller practices. So that what the goal here is, is that at any given time we're aware of our own emotional state. We're aware of other people and become more accepted. We accept their way of thinking, their way of doing things. And we all come to the table with that sense of, "This is me, and you are you. And we are different, and we can work together to accomplish anything without feeling stressed out, or uncertain, and not letting those things derail us constantly."
- Matthew Tift:
- When you're talking about formal and informal practices, part of your work is to bring those into an organization. Could you tell us a little bit about how that works?
- Dori Kelner:
- Yeah. So it's really important to make sure that an organization is ready for this type of work. I would never push an organization into this, like trying to sell them a benefits plan, program, or something like that. And say, "Oh hey, if you bring this in, you can give it to all your employees and they'll love it." And it's really not what any of my work is all about. What I do is identify organizations whose leadership is in alignment with what I do. They want to create human workplaces that are sensitive to their employees' needs. That will help their employees' wellness, and therefore ultimately improve the organization as a whole. And not just the bottom line, but also how people interact with one another. So the organization really needs to be ready to do this.
- Dori Kelner:
- And because meditation is such a personal thing, the formal practices are so personal, they are never mandatory for anyone to accept. We want to offer these as options for people to embrace if they would like to try them, and we can train them on how to do these things. But it's never going to be a case where an employer tells somebody in the organization, "You must meditate. You must do yoga." We're not about forcing things on people. We're also not about just saying, "Hey, there's a meditation program out there. Go take care of it if you want."
- Dori Kelner:
- So what is this really about then? It's about training leaders to understand where they're coming from emotionally themselves, and where their teams are coming from, and embracing all of that diversity across all of that. Making sure that we have the capacity to control our emotions at work, to be resilient, and respond from all the uncertainty that we've faced in the past three years and probably will face again. So basically giving people these skills to learn how to connect better, to manage their emotions better, to deal with uncertainty and build resiliency. And to enhance communications among everyone on the team. So I like to work with the management level of the organization. Because once they can model the behavior that they want the rest of the organization to see, that's where we see the biggest benefit of bringing mindfulness into the workplace.
- Matthew Tift:
- Ah, so you start at the top in an organization. Whereas other mindfulness programs or other wellness programs might just go straight to the employee. That was a conscious choice then, I assume, to say, "This has to be modeled by the leaders. We have to make sure that this organization is offering health insurance or other important types of support for their employees, other types of programs. And then this is just an optional addition to that." But it starts from the top. Do you see the kind of work that you're doing as solving a problem in an organization, or is it just an additional benefit that is there for the employees? Or how do you understand how your work fits into that when you're starting with the leaders?
- Dori Kelner:
- So I think the work is transformational. What we're trying to do is change the organizational culture so that it respects the employees. That employees aren't considered an HR asset, or a tangible object the way a lot of what's gone on in the tech space for the last 40 years has really been trying to get value from employees. You know, "How long can you work? How much can you accomplish? How much can you take on?" And it's not been about caring about employees. So a good example is in the Great Resignation. What we're seeing in 2022, now that a lot of the hourly workers have left their jobs because they weren't getting paid enough, they weren't getting benefits, and all of that. That was going on in 2021, in 2022, we're seeing knowledge workers, we're seeing senior leadership. We're seeing people leave the organization because they're not being fulfilled.
- Dori Kelner:
- So it's not a matter of how much money they're making. It's not a matter of their job title. They're just finding they're not fulfilled anymore. So when I work with the senior management of an organization, it's to understand that people will perform better and be happier if they're fulfilled in their jobs, if they're seen as humans. I have no problem offering meditation programs to employees, but I don't do it in a vacuum. I don't just say, "Here. Here's a meditation program that will make you feel better." If the management is still throwing stressors down on top of their employees, it can't be up to the employees to just meditate the stress away. So there are practices that leaders can take. We've seen lots of leadership training over the years, right? Executive training and coaching. What we're trying to do is add a mindfulness component to that training, so that there is a greater awareness of the human aspect of the workplace.
- Matthew Tift:
- Okay. So it's much more, what you're talking about, than offering mindfulness, you're really focused on the top of the organization. So do you ever offer programs for the employees at the companies as well?
- Dori Kelner:
- Definitely. I think offering well-being programs is clearly part of showing that the organization cares about the well-being of their teams. So we offer mindfulness coaching. We offer mindfulness programs like meditation, learn how to meditate, or drop-in meditation programs throughout the day. We offer setting up like an editorial calendar, but just for mindfulness. It's like, "Okay, so what are we going to put out there? What are we going to blog?" Say they have an internal-communications channel, maybe they have Slack set up or something. What should we drop in there, and when should we do it to make people feel like they're connected?" So the purpose of the programs for employees is to make them feel cared for and connected at the same time. Provide them the same set of skills that we're trying to provide to the management team, so that everybody can up their game together.
- Matthew Tift:
- So when you are working with the organization, teaching them some of these tools, do you find that it needs to be individualized per each organization and how the culture exists? Or are there certain things that organizations can just adapt that you have found work pretty much across the board with any of your clients?
- Dori Kelner:
- Yeah. I still follow the same protocol that I did when I was designing websites. So I'll do a discovery with an organization and find out where their pain points are. Do they have a lot of turnover? Or are they in a situation where there's a lot of uncertainty, or very demanding clients, or very diverse teams who need to learn to work together? So just depending on who it is that contacts me, whether it's coming through HR, or through a senior leader, or whatever, I just try to understand what would benefit them the most. Would it benefit them to put in a training program? Would it benefit them to do monthly webinars? Would it benefit them to have a drop-in mindfulness-meditation sessions? So I will craft something customized to each client, but it's like Drupal modules. It's like a box of Legos. It's like which pieces fit and will satisfy the needs of that organization?
- Dori Kelner:
- And so sometimes we start really small, and sometimes we just go right at the culture, and go right back over the organizational purpose, the organizational values. And then how does that ripple through, and what changes can we make to support it? Because generally organizations who are coming to me who are looking for mindfulness in the organization, they know what that means. You don't generally see an organization coming in saying, "Curious as to what mindfulness is, is whether it can help me." I hope that we get to that point at some time sooner rather than later, where this just becomes another thing that's important in the workplace. And even if people don't get it, they still ask for it. But right now, what I'm seeing are organizations who have leaders who do understand mindfulness, and want a program in their organization that will help to just improve the quality of life for everyone there. That is really the goal, is to improve people's work life and personal lives as well.
- Matthew Tift:
- So if you're working with an organization, it sounds like you have done some preselection to figure out who might be most amenable to this sort of addition to their company culture. Do you find that some organizations just aren't, or do you find that you can't really convince people that this might be beneficial? Have you tried doing that with organizations, and found just doesn't really work unless we start from a place of wanting to do it?
- Dori Kelner:
- Yeah, I think you said that well. And in fact, in all of my training, we were told, "This is not something you convince people of. This is something they need to want." So sometimes we'll come in with a webinar so that they can see what this is about. All the work that I do is based in neuroscience. And I think that really, especially in the tech community, to be offering evidence-based programs is really important. This is not a spiritual program, it is a secular program. So if somebody is curious, I will offer to do a workshop. Come in, do a webinar or a workshop, and see how it resonates with them.
- Dori Kelner:
- I will say most of the time, they realize they're not ready, or they don't have the resources or the time to do it. And they don't see it as a priority. They're like, "Oh, maybe we'll deal with this later." And that's okay. The ones who go, "Oh, wow, this is amazing." They will rise to the top. That's who I want to work with. I'm not about convincing anyone about anything. I'm happy to do an introductory workshop for any organization so they can understand what it is. And just mull over, over time. Think about, "Does this really fit into the kind of culture we want to build at our organization?" And then I'll be there when they're ready.
- Matthew Tift:
- So it sounds a little bit like the way you are approaching this is the way a meditation teacher might approach teaching meditation. Where you're not going to convince somebody to sit down and be quiet for any period of time if they don't want to. Is that how you view this?
- Dori Kelner:
- Absolutely. When I teach mindfulness-based stress-reduction programs, that's exactly how we talk about it at the beginning. These are eight-week programs for individuals that are based on the teachings of Jon Kabat-Zinn. And when we start a program, it's always about, "This is an eight-week experiment. It's an eight-week science experiment. So we just invite you to follow along the program for eight weeks, show up at every session. Do the work that's been assigned, and then see where you are after eight weeks. See how it's impacted you, see what the experiment has shown you." So yeah, I do feel that even for organizations, it's about leaving it up to them as to whether they're ready to make a change like this in the organization. It really does have to fit in. And it shouldn't feel like it's something extra, that it's a chore for people to do. So if this feels like it's too much work, too heavy a lift, it's not going to get the place that it needs, and it's not going to get the respect that it needs in the organization.
- Matthew Tift:
- What you're saying reminds me that just like with meditation, not only do you have to want it, but it also does take some time before you see the fruits of your efforts, as they like to say. So sometimes that eight weeks seems like a big investment, and that alone can turn folks off. So when you do an eight-week program, are those all in person, or is there individual work where somebody might, say, use an app, or listen to recordings? Or how does a eight-week program, or maybe intervention would be a better word in this case, how does that work when you're offering a eight-week program?
- Dori Kelner:
- Well, it depends on whether it's for the individual or for leadership. So those programs are very different, even though they use a lot of the same building blocks. For individuals, there really actually is a sign-up that you agree to show up all eight weeks. And the sessions are fairly long, they're two-and-a-half hours.
- Matthew Tift:
- Wow.
- Dori Kelner:
- So it is a big commitment that people are making. And in-between for individuals, the only assignment they have is to do the practices that we've introduced to them, so to meditate daily. And then each week there is a theme and they have a little bit of homework. So that homework might be to have a mindful meal, or to... You keep a log of some pleasant experiences that they've had all week long. So little things like that. For leadership, it depends on the organization. I do like to have a touchpoint, and my preference is weekly. To be able to touch everyone weekly, and make sure that they feel connected, and they have a place to go if they have questions.
- Dori Kelner:
- The importance of weekly touch, whether it be the individual or the organization, is tapping into the collective wisdom of the people in the team. So if I have a group of 10, 12, 20 participants in any particular seminar, and they're with me for eight weeks, they really get to know one another as well. Because that collective wisdom teaches people better than I can teach them. So when somebody says, "I couldn't sit still for a minute of that meditation." Other people can feel that and connect to it. And they can go, "Hey, I had that problem, too." And that can be discussed. You know, "What can we do to try to lessen our judgment of ourselves that we can't sit still?" Because sometimes we can't, and that's okay. But letting people hear that in a group setting is so valuable. Letting people share, breaking people into small groups to share, and then sharing with the larger group. Just tapping into that collective wisdom is so much a part of the curriculum. So I do like to keep people connected in person as much as I can.
- Matthew Tift:
- So just to make sure I'm understanding the nuts and bolts of this, I'm guessing that the weekly meetings are not the two-and-a-half-hour meetings. Is that right?
- Dori Kelner:
- For the individuals they are. So for the individuals, we meet every week for two-and-a-half hours. I have other programs that are shorter, but for MBSR, it is two-and-a-half-hour meetings for eight weeks.
- Matthew Tift:
- Oh, okay.
- Dori Kelner:
- So that is actually where all of the work happens. That's where we practice our meditation, we practice our yoga. We do a specific deep dive into the one scientific component, one evidence-based component of mindfulness. And that's really what those programs are about. For the individuals, I mean, for the companies, for the mindful-leadership programs, that's going to taste different because we're talking about executives, we're talking about management. They're going to bring issues into the room about the organization, and it's my job not to solve their problems, but to help them understand how to tap into the trainings of mindfulness so that they can solve their own problems. And so being together in a group, whether that maybe will be an hour a week, something shorter, obviously, than two-and-a-half hours. Which we are not going to get from any management team, that's too much for them to take time out to do. So we craft it in a way that it's a shorter commitment for them, but the same kind of tone to it. Where the collective is really working together to learn these practices, and learn how to apply them into the workplace.
- Matthew Tift:
- It does really seem like it's quite a bit different in the workplace. The two-and-a-half-hour Zoom meeting added to the calendar isn't something that most people are going to want at their job. Maybe some would. But at Lullabot we have two different in-person groups going right now, as well as a program where folks can do some meditation with an app for five minutes a day. And a lot of folks find it difficult just to find five minutes a day. They find that to just be something else on the to-do list.
- Dori Kelner:
- Right.
- Matthew Tift:
- So if you're not offering a two-and-a-half-hour program, but you're offering a shorter program, how do you help people make time for this in their day, in a work environment?
- Dori Kelner:
- Great. And that's why it's really important to me that the organization wants the program, instead of my talking them into the program. So you've tapped right into that. It's not going to work if I tell them, "Hey, this is going to be really good for you." It's going to become just something on their to-do list. So it has to be done in the same manner. It takes eight weeks to develop any new habit. And so whether you're doing that through an app, or we're doing it through drop-in meditation, or we're doing it through an hour-a-week program with homework on the side, you have to be committed to it. And you have to understand that it takes eight weeks to build a habit. If you're not going to do it, you're not going to see the benefit.
- Dori Kelner:
- But I'll tell you that when people actually do it, when they actually are meditating on a daily basis. When they're becoming aware during the day of when they're stressed out, or jumping to conclusions, or having a meltdown, or whatever that is. When they start to become aware of that and go, "Oh, wow. This is the time I'd have to try this breathing practice that Dori told me about." And then they can calm their minds down and bring their critical thinking back on board. When they start doing those things throughout their day, they see the benefit. I don't have to tell them what the benefit is. They'll learn that benefit. But like you said, they have to be committed to doing the eight-week program, and it doesn't belong on a to-do list. It has to become a habit. And that is challenge in the workplace.
- Matthew Tift:
- Yeah, it sure is.
- Dori Kelner:
- This is not easy stuff, is it?
- Matthew Tift:
- No, it's not. Although I've talked to some people that have been doing the meditation at Lullabot, and eight months into it, they'll start to notice a big change. And every person, it's really different, because sometimes over months it's inconsistent. And we've never tried anything where it was, "You have to do this and you must sign up."
- Dori Kelner:
- Right.
- Matthew Tift:
- A lot of what you're teaching then is based on this MBSR research, the Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction. MBSR is known in meditation circles as a very research-focus type of mindfulness. Are the programs that you're teaching then, are these basically MBSR-certified programs? Or are these programs that you're teaching that are based on research that is applicable to anyone, and you're just applying them to a workplace environment?
- Dori Kelner:
- That's a great question. No, I'm not teaching MBSR in the workplace. The only certified program that I'm able to teach is the MBSR, and it must be taught exactly the way it was taught to me. So that eight-week program is saved for individuals. And certainly if somebody in the workplace wants to join an MBSR class, whether it's mine or somebody else's, they might ultimately want to do that. Because there's great benefit in that program. As you said, it is evidence based. So it's based in the research that we've seen over the last 40 years that have come, not just from Jon Kabat-Zinn. But from others in the mindfulness community who have done a lot of research on the benefits of bringing mindfulness into your personal life. The programs that I do in the workplace are not certified by anyone, but they take all the elements of all the certifications that I've received.
- Dori Kelner:
- So I only teach things that I know are evidence based, and adapt them into the workplace. So I do bring in a lot of the science, I'll always start a program with understanding the neuroscience of stress management, and start from there. Provide people with examples of the research as we proceed. So for instance, there is examples of how resilience helps us overcome our stress. And that was some studies that were done way back in the 1970s. I might bring those into the forefront and have people understand those studies. So I will bring the studies into the programs, so that the program really feels evidence based, that we're not just trying stuff out here.
- Matthew Tift:
- Sure. There are lots of different studies that study certain subgroups, people with anxiety, people with post-traumatic stress, and all sorts of different disorders. You are working with the Drupal community. And this may sound like a ridiculous question, but I've wondered. Is there anything that might make the Drupal community unique in how you might approach in a program like this? Or knowledge that you feel that you have learned as part of being in the Drupal community that is applicable especially well to a program like this?
- Dori Kelner:
- Yeah, that's a wonderful question. Because I've been in the community for so long, and I know so many people in the community, and I know people at different levels. I know people who are new coders all the way up to CEO levels within the community. And there's a lot of stress in this community, because we are ever changing. Everything about Drupal that you know today changes tomorrow, right? So it's very challenging, and we're also relying on one another to maintain this product and keep it in the forefront. And we work across companies that might have very different styles. So it is important to me to teach to a community that I understand and feel comfortable in. If I were to come from the outside and try to teach in the Drupal community, I think I would not expect to be accepted as a leader of the community. The same way I feel like right now, I wouldn't necessarily go out and try to find opportunities in the public schools. I've never been a public-school teacher.
- Dori Kelner:
- I know mindfulness in schools is huge right now, and so there's tons of opportunity there, but I don't necessarily see myself as an expert in that arena. So I leave that to other people to pick up on that. I know other people who are working, who are nurses, or in the healthcare industry, who are bringing mindfulness into that industry. So I do think it is important to understand the industry in which you're working. And that's one of the reasons why I have really been focusing on the Drupal community and the tech space, because I can relate. I mean, so much of this is about how we relate to each other as humans. And I can relate to people that I have been around for... What has it been? It's been over 15 years or something, it's been a long time. So being able to relate to the community is, I think, a very important component when you're trying to bring change.
- Matthew Tift:
- That makes a lot of sense to me. One of the things we discussed at the most recent DrupalCon was this idea of metrics. And MBSR, in some sense, uses a lot of metrics. Because they are trying things with folks, measuring something, and then seeing how the measurement comes out at the end of the particular program. So do you feel like there's any sort of metrics involved in the work that you're doing?
- Dori Kelner:
- Metrics are challenging for me, particularly in the workplace, because that's what everyone wants to see. You know, "If I'm going to invest in this program, what are the metrics I'm going to see that prove that this has worked?" So most of the research at this point in time after 40 years has just been done on individuals, it has not been done in the workplace. So I'll be perfectly upfront about that. The research that's been done on individuals, we have seen through fMRIs, and through self-reporting, we see changes in people's behavior. We can see changes in the brain. But when you get to the workplace, I'm not going to promise certain metrics, because the studies just have not yet been done. This is still fairly new. I mean, like I said, it's only been 40 years since we've been doing this with individuals, and a whole lot less since we've been trying to bring mindfulness into the workplace.
- Dori Kelner:
- Show there are studies out there that show things like less turnover, better achievement of goals, things like that. But it's really going to vary tremendously from organization to organization because we're people. And so we're all individual people, and each person is going to get something different out of this. So I really do think that a lot of the measurement is self-reported, subjective measurement. "Do I feel more resilient when faced with uncertainty in the workplace? Have I been able to control my emotions better?" There are people who fly off the handle, has mindfulness helped them to better manage their emotional state? "Are we having more productive meetings? Are people feeling like this is a safe space where they can talk?"
- Dori Kelner:
- So a lot of the soft, subjective measurements are important. Because ultimately, if you have a happier workforce, if they feel more put together, their productivity is going to go up and turnover is going to go down. The number of sick days are going to go down when people adopt a healthier lifestyle. So all of these things added up together are the things that every organization wants anyway. We want happier, more productive people, because when we have happier, more productive people, our bottom line goes up. So I can't promise that your bottom line is going to go up, or you're going to see greater productivity, or whatever, but kind of know it to be true. And the metrics are not necessarily... The kind of objective measurement that you're looking for, that we're talking about right now, isn't quite necessarily there and available. Other than looking at some of these metrics that HR always looks at and seeing if those improve. And I think that's the best we can do right now.
- Matthew Tift:
- So do you think it would be fair to say then that there might be some quantitative differences with an organization that embarks on a mindfulness or wellness program, but in your case, you would say maybe be more focused on the qualitative measurements?
- Dori Kelner:
- Yeah, I think that's fair. I think if organizations are already tracking certain metrics, then we can look at those metrics and say, "Here are the ones that we probably will see improve." And I'm all for that. So if your metrics are, for example, your turnover rate is too high, and there are... That's generally a sign of a cultural issue. So if we can bring a program in that will culturally change the organization, we can see, obviously, if that metric improves. And that's fine, I don't have an issue with that at all. But a lot of it is qualitative, and I think it is important to tap into anyone who has been part of the program. Or even if just to see if in general, the organization is feeling healthier. And we can talk about subjective ways that people might be feeling healthier. Do they feel that they're better able to manage their personal life and their work life? That's a really good metric to look at, but it's not objective. But if somebody is reporting that, is that equally important? And I think it is.
- Matthew Tift:
- So do you ask questions like that at the beginning and the end of a program?
- Dori Kelner:
- Yes. So we'll have people self-evaluate on certain characteristics. Ability to listen, ability to manage emotions, just things that are about how they relate to other people. So we'll have them self report, and they don't necessarily have to give us that paper. So at the beginning, I like for people to just say, "Okay, I'm going to rate myself on these things." And then they can hold onto that. What I like to know is at the end of the program, the difference that they see in themselves. So if they see that they're sleeping better, or that they've developed a better way to manage their time, or any of those things. They can take the before data and the after data and tell me the difference. Tell me how it has changed for them, or if it hasn't changed for them. But I find that it's very useful for people to do a self-assessment so that they have a basis for remembering where they were eight weeks ago and where they are now.
- Matthew Tift:
- Sure.
- Dori Kelner:
- Or especially if we're going to continue. Like maybe not everybody is in an eight-week program, maybe we decide just to do... A really simple program would be, we have drop-in meditation throughout the week, and we do a once-a-month webinar. This is a very simple way to get started. And we can have people self-assess before that and after that. How are they feeling? And do they feel more connected? Do they feel more in control of their emotions? Are they more in control? Do they recognize when situations change and they can't control it? And how do they respond to that? Has that changed? So allowing them to make that judgment for themselves, that assessment for themselves. I hate the word judgment. So for them to assess, "Here's where I was before I got involved in anything about mindfulness. Here is where I am now." And even on a regular basis to continue that assessment. It's something that I do all the time with myself informally, is just to notice how much I have changed my way of being as a result of my practice.
- Matthew Tift:
- It strikes me that the other way that somebody might measure, other than self-assessment or some sort of metric, is working with other professionals. And I have had on the show, other people that teach yoga, other people that do mindfulness programs, or some people that are both yoga teachers and therapists. But you work with some of these other professions sometimes where, I understand you're working with psychotherapists, or doctors, or athletic trainers, or coaches who might see things differently from that outsider perspective. Could you talk a little bit how those partnerships might play into the work that you're doing?
- Dori Kelner:
- Yeah. If I am brought in, in a partnership with a therapist, or with a sports coach, or something like that, it's really up to them to see if I am providing value to their clients. So I might come in, and they might say, "Look, my client is not in attune to their emotions." Or, "My client really needs to concentrate more on their golf swing." whatever that might be. I need to know from them, if they're bringing me in to work with somebody one-on-one, it is a relationship between me and that person, to that partner, to make sure that the work that I'm doing is benefiting their client. And it's entirely up to them and their client as to whether this is useful for them.
- Dori Kelner:
- So I know therapists have their own metrics as well. Again, I think they're pretty soft, actually. But if they can start to see that when they talk to their clients, that their clients are responding from a different place, then they can tell that it's the mindfulness that's helping in that regard. If a sports coach sees that their client is dealing with adversity better, like they're more resilient. So they hit that shank and it's like, "Ah, okay. I know what I did." And they're able to then hit the next shot without being all wound up, then they can start to see where the benefits are coming from. But it comes more from their side than from my side.
- Matthew Tift:
- Sure. That makes sense. A lot of folks in those other professions might think, "Oh yeah, this person can use a little extra yoga." And then the yoga teacher gets brought in. So we're getting near the end of our time. I am wondering if there is any one practice or technology that you would recommend to someone listening.
- Dori Kelner:
- I always start with insight meditation. Insight meditation is really the basis of all of this. If somebody wants a formal practice, that's what I highly recommend. Insight meditation... And there are so many misnomers about what it is, it's not the same as trying to clear your mind, which I think a lot of people have problems with. Although that is a perfectly reasonable meditation practice. All kinds of meditation are excellent. I personally only teach insight meditation. So for people to understand, there are lots of kinds of meditation. Whichever one suits them, is the one that's for them. It's great. But if they want to look into something that is very forgiving, very understanding of the human nature, insight meditation is a really excellent practice to help you on a daily basis. It's like a practice that we talk about working out at the gym and building muscle strength. Insight meditation builds brain strength. So I find it's, especially in communities of knowledge workers, that that's a really good place to go and start.
- Matthew Tift:
- Thank you. If any folks want to get in touch with you or find out more about you, how would you recommend that they contact you?
- Dori Kelner:
- I'm in the Drupal Slack, so that's one really easy way for people to reach out to me. They can just send me a DM in the Drupal Slack and connect that way. I have a website, insightfulculture.com. You can set up an appointment on that website to connect with me. I'm on LinkedIn, so I can connect in that manner. And my email is dori.kelner@insightfulculture.com. So however people want to reach out. I live on Slack, so that's a great place to start if that's available to you.
- Matthew Tift:
- Oh, that sounds great. And I'll put links to all of those in the show notes. And I guess my last question is, is there anything that we didn't talk about that you would like to mention now?
- Dori Kelner:
- Yeah. We tend to think of this type of work as a fad. Like, "Oh, this is a phase, and next year we'll be onto something new." What we've discovered in the research, and I don't want to sound like I'm a researcher, because I am not, but I am a heavy reader of the research. And what we've discovered over the last 20, 30 years is that this is not something that you learn conceptually. This is something you need to experience, and embody, and make it part of who you are. It takes patience and self-compassion. So for people to just bring self-compassion to their day, we're all doing the best we can. And the person next to us is also doing the best they can. And just that one thing can make the world a whole lot better place.
- Matthew Tift:
- So well said. And thanks again, Dori, for taking the time. I really appreciate you coming on the show. I think what you have shared with us today is very valuable information. So like I mentioned, I will put all of those links to connect with you in the show notes, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.
- Dori Kelner:
- Oh, thank you, Matthew. I really appreciate the opportunity to connect with you again, I know we had a great time talking at DrupalCon. And I hope this was helpful to those who are listening, and happy to connect to anyone when they feel it's appropriate for them.
- Matthew Tift:
- Thank you so much for listening and for spreading the word about Hacking Culture to your friends, family, and coworkers. If you are interested in topics such as yoga, meditation, and well-being, please subscribe to my newsletter at matthewtift.com/newsletter. Hacking Culture is produced at Lullabot. The theme music is from the Open Goldberg Variations. Thank you for listening.