Matthew Tift talks with Stephanie Wagner about Healthy Minds Innovations, their Health Minds @Work program, and "hacking the mind." They talk about tools that cultivate and measure well-being. They discuss various critiques of workplace wellness programs and how Healthy Minds might be able to support your company or organization.
Episode Guests
Stephanie Wagner, M.A., M.M., NBC-HWC
Stephanie is a board-certified health and wellness coach with a passion for mindfulness and meditation. She is a trainer and program specialist at Healthy Minds Innovations who is especially skilled on topics related to workplace well-being.
Mentioned in this Episode
Transcript
Transcript
- Matthew Tift:
- It's June 2022, Episode 20. Stephanie Wagner on cultivating Healthy Minds @Work.
- Matthew Tift:
- Welcome to Hacking Culture, exploring practices and technologies that contribute to well-being. Hacking Culture is sponsored by Lullabot. And I'm your host, Matthew Tift.
- Matthew Tift:
- Welcome back. Thank you so much for tuning in today. I just wanted to add a little note before the interview to let you know that I have expanded the subjects that we will be covering on Hacking Culture. In the past, the focus has been upon free software advocates and the work that they do. And now I've expanded it to include both practices and technologies that contribute to well-being.
- Matthew Tift:
- So in today's episode, we will be talking about technologies, but it won't even be free and open source software. I'll actually be talking about proprietary software. The reason for that is my interest really has grown to understand well-being as a topic that includes all aspects of our life, including our software usage. So I'm still very definitely an advocate for free software and I try and only use free software in my daily life. However, I have realized that there are many other aspects to a happy life, to living well, that are not related to software. So while free software is definitely part of my life and my enjoyment of life, I am interested in exploring some of the many other ways that folks can live well.
- Matthew Tift:
- Welcome Stephanie Wagner onto the show. Today we're going to be talking about tools for well-being, as well as workplace wellness programs, especially the Healthy Minds Innovations, the nonprofit where you work. I know there's a lot of information about you on the web already that people can read up on you. So I thought I'd start off as a way of introduction by asking you to respond to something that you had said, which is that you thought working at Healthy Minds is basically the job of your dreams. And my question for you is, what do you think it is about your background and upbringing that made this your dream job?
- Stephanie Wagner:
- What a great question. Well, thank you for that introduction and for having me on the podcast today. I'm really happy to be with you. And I would say one of the things that makes this my dream job in terms of my background is that my first education in college was music. I have a bachelor's of music degree and I have a master's in music. I spent many years being a flute teacher. I really love teaching, which is very much a part of my job at Healthy Minds.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- I think that teaching, regardless of whether you're teaching music or meditation or whatever it is, those skills associated with teaching and relationship building and communication translate regardless of what you're teaching. But I really love teaching and I love the interpersonal part of it. I love building relationships and connections with students. I love helping people learn and grow. And learning is very much a value of mine. So this kind of goes to the second part of the question, which is what is it about my upbringing? I think that makes this my dream job. And part of it is just what I value. And so two values come to mind. The first is learning and growth, and it has been a really, really important part of my own personal path. I ended up getting another master's degree in 2018 in integrative health and well-being coaching. And so I just really love learning and I love being able to help other people learn and grow.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- So that's sort of one value that makes this job so meaningful to me. And then I think the other value is health and well-being and really wanting to help people be able to develop resilience, to be able to live happier, more content, more easeful lives. And that is I think another reason why this job is a dream job. So it's kind of a combination of the perfect blend of my professional background and then values. So when we can actually tap into our values as a source of meaning, it can give things like our work. And even the mundane activities of our lives, it can be a source of motivation for us. So I think when people can find the sweet spot around what makes life meaningful, that turns things like jobs into dream jobs.
- Matthew Tift:
- Wow. I'm realizing now that some people who are listening to this that know me may be realizing that you and I have a lot in common.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Oh, really? Oh, great!
- Matthew Tift:
- I don't even know if you know this.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- No, I don't.
- Matthew Tift:
- So I also have multiple degrees in music.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Oh my gosh. Are you serious?
- Matthew Tift:
- Yeah. I also live in Minneapolis, well, near Minneapolis. So we live near each other. I also teach meditation. I had read that you also are a fitness instructor, and I teach yoga. So we've never met in real life, but my goodness, I'm realizing we have a lot in common.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yes, we do. Oh, that's wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. All of that is true.
- Matthew Tift:
- Yeah. So hopefully this won't be too much of an echo chamber here. I was reading about some of your background and you had talked about how, when you started meditating in particular, that that was a point in your background that was really influential for you in terms of the difference in your mental health and anxiety and that kind of thing. And again, that's something else that for me, it's almost like once I started meditating and seeing the results, it was tough to not continue because it's so motivational. But I wondered if you could talk a little bit about that particular aspect of your background, like when you started meditating and how that made a difference.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah. I came to meditation like many people because I was suffering and I had a lot of anxiety. I would say that my anxiety was chronic, meaning that it was sort of my state of being. There were very few times in my life where I just didn't feel anxious. I did sort of hold this belief that things could be better and different for me. And so I started... And I've been introduced to the idea of meditation growing up. My mom is a Yogi, so she's done yoga for many, many years. And she had been very curious about meditation and had introduced me to a lot of sort of alternative ways of thinking about health. And so I just decided that I wanted to give it a try and just see if it could help me because I had been doing sort of unhealthy behaviors to try and help me find some ease, and I just knew that was not sustainable for me. I wanted to deal with the anxiety in a healthier way.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- And so I went through this whole process of trying out a couple of different meditation centers, a couple of different types of meditation, because there are of course many different styles and types of meditation until I really found something that resonated with me. I felt an immediate connection to the practice. I think people often come to the practice of meditation and mindfulness because they want some kind of outcome. They want to feel better. They want to be less stressed. But what I found is that the path of feeling better is very up and down. From meditation session to meditation session, it's not like every meditation session delivers on a promise of making you feel awesome. It's just not the case. Meditation experience is very up and down. At least initially sometimes it will feel very calm and very peaceful. And then sometimes when you're really agitated, you might discover that you have a lot of thoughts and it feels challenging to sit still.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- But what I did find about the practice of meditation is over the long haul, looking back I found incredible benefits in terms of my anxiety, but I also found it was a path of getting to know myself really deeply and getting to see my patterns and my habits and the ways in which I perceive the world that are so limiting, because we sort of see the world through a certain set of glasses that are very unique to our own identity and our own upbringing and our own patterns. And so to just be able to begin to see that more clearly actually uproots a lot of what was causing me anxiety in the first place. So it's been a really powerful journey of just really getting to know myself, but over the long haul and having a consistent practice, really experiencing the benefits of a reduction in anxiety and just I would say improved resilience and an improvement in my overall well-being.
- Matthew Tift:
- That aspect of meditating and it being kind of an individual journey in figuring out what works for you, why it works, where you're missing things, it's really a powerful practice. I think that actually creates a nice segue into talking about the Center for Healthy Minds and the Healthy Minds Innovations where you work.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah.
- Matthew Tift:
- I'm going to admit that I'm a bit of a fanboy of Healthy Minds.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- You go!
- Matthew Tift:
- My kids would say, "I stan the Healthy Minds," I think is the cool thing.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Oh man, I am not... That is too cool for me.
- Matthew Tift:
- I think it's something to do with Eminem.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Oh, okay. Gotcha.
- Matthew Tift:
- I don't really know. So I read this book called Altered Traits, which was written by Richard Davidson, the founder of the Center for Healthy Minds. That's a nonprofit that's associated with, or as part of the University of Wisconsin-Madison. And you work for Healthy Minds Innovations, which helps bring that research into practice. So I wondered if you could talk just a little bit about this, the Healthy Minds Innovations, what you do, your elevator pitch for that, and how you are working to translate these practices that for a lot of people are very personal into programs and techniques that people and groups can use.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah. Great. Healthy Minds Innovations is indeed a nonprofit. So we are affiliated with the Center for Healthy Minds, the research institution that you just mentioned out of the University of Wisconsin-Madison. What we do at Healthy Minds Innovations is we translate the scientific insights coming out of the Center for Healthy Minds into tools to help people both cultivate as well as measure well-being. We have a step by step training program for the mind that partly includes an app. And then we also have workplace well-being offerings that you sort of alluded to at the very beginning where we help people train and skills associated with resilience and flourishing.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- We have a unique scientific framework of well-being. It's a model of well-being that has four different pillars. These pillars are awareness, connection, insight, and purpose. And within each of these pillars of well-being, there is a set of skills that are trainable and science points them to being beneficial to well-being. And so these pillars of well-being are emerging out of a convergence of themes in different areas like the world of psychology, Asian, meditative traditions, the world's wisdom traditions, as well as Greco-Roman philosophy. So what we do is we help people train in individual skills that are within each of these pillars of well-being in kind of a step by step way.
- Matthew Tift:
- Yeah, that's great. Another point that might be relevant to people listening is that Lullabot, where I work, is now participating in this program. So I am very well aware of it. And I've been using the app and watching your webinars and learning all about this, the science of this.
- Matthew Tift:
- There's one thing that you just said that I'd like to dig into a little bit more, which is that it sounds like one of the primary things that Healthy Minds Innovations does is to, I think the words used for cultivate and measure well-being.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah.
- Matthew Tift:
- So a lot of people want to cultivate well-being. I'm curious about the measurement part, because I know I was actually drawn to that. It seemed like it made sense that if we're doing a workplace wellness program, in this case the Healthy Minds @Work, that it seemed attractive that we could sort of measure well-being in our organization and that we could grow that. But I can understand that that's like a real complex thing to actually measure someone's well-being. And so I'm curious, why do you think it's important to measure? Why is that one of the key points that you folks often make?
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Measuring well-being is important for a couple of reasons. So the first is that on an individual level, it helps us to get to know ourselves better. And so what we do when we start the Healthy Minds program, if you get started in the app, you will initially take what we call the Healthy Minds index. And the Healthy Minds index is an assessment that helps you understand where in our Healthy Minds framework of well-being you are stronger and where you may have an opportunity to grow. This is interesting information, right? It helps us just kind of validate or see where we have opportunities and where we're strong. I love that part of just getting to know yourself better.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- I think the other thing that can be really motivating is that what will happen is that there will be times throughout the program where you're going to be asked to retake the assessment and/or the measurement. The reason is because we want to be able to see how you're growing and developing as compared to your baseline. So the baseline of course gives you information about kind of where you're at before you start training your mind. And then as you take those subsequent assessments, you are going to be able to see and compare where you are, and again, these certain areas compared to baseline. And again, it can be motivating, right? Because we can say, "Oh yeah, I'm improving." So there's motivation there. But it also can guide us in the way that we continue to engage with the program.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- So for example, there are a couple of different ways to use the Healthy Minds program. Some people might go into the app and use it as a linear step by step process, where I go all the way into awareness and then I go and I train in connection and sort of follow it step by step. Another way that you could actually use the Healthy Minds program is by using your assessment to help you understand where you might want to go in the program. Let's say you went through the very beginning of the program where you get just a, we call it the 30 day challenge or it's sometimes referred to as the foundations, you get like a little taste of each of the different pillars of well-being. You could actually look at your assessment and say, "Oh, I see that I have an opportunity to grow in the area of connection." And then you can use the information from the assessment to guide you where you might go in the program next. So the assessment can also help you be more strategic in terms of how you're going through the program as well.
- Matthew Tift:
- Do you think then that that assessment for some folks is a motivator, whereas others might be more motivated by seeing those changes in their life? Because, I mean, it seems like everybody kind of has these different motivations. I know for me it was just having these random times when something I completely couldn't predict, like I'm out shoveling and realizing I'm not getting frustrated that my kids aren't helping me or something like that. I'm just realizing, "Wait a second. I'm enjoying shoveling? I'm enjoying doing the dishes?" That wasn't what I was going after. But I feel like that measurement tool, maybe that can be helpful just to kind of help guide the practice. But I feel like as someone who's participating, you also want to kind of leave this open to whatever might happen. So could you talk a little bit about the different ways that people might be motivated?
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah, absolutely. You bring up a really good point, which is there's something very motivating about seeing the kind of fruits of your meditation practice or the fruits of training your mind in your daily life. Like you said, noticing those moments where you're more deeply connected with your values, where you're finding that shoveling isn't a drag, but you're able to use it as maybe a way to connect with generosity or compassion or care, you know? So it's those ways in which we might have those natural moments in our lives where we're noticing, "Oh, I actually am having moments where I'm more present, where I feel more socially connected, where I feel more compassionate." And just even noticing those moments where we're showing up differently, we're going against our habits is a really, really powerful motivator.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- And then there are some people who might see the scientific measure, the assessment as being just like an interesting thing. And then there's some people who might think that the measure is the thing, the thing that they're really motivated by. But I think motivation comes up in many different ways. I think the other way that we can be motivated is by connecting with the "Why this is even important to us?," right? So why do I want to do this? Why is well-being important to me? Why is having a healthy mind important to me? That's another source of motivation.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- So motivation can come in many shapes and sizes, recognizing that well-being isn't the same for every single person nor is motivation the same for every person. And so really having these different ways that we can try and tap into this source of motivation is I think helpful because motivation also is not always sustainable, right? We'll have moments in our lives where we're extremely motivated and then we'll have moments in our lives where we're not motivated. And we have to be able to work with that too.
- Matthew Tift:
- Yeah. That's one of the things I love about the program. Some might think of it as like a meditation app, but it's also teaching you about habit formation in the science behind that. As your website says, "It all comes back to science."
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah, absolutely.
- Matthew Tift:
- It seems like one of the key factors here that you're referencing is that the ability to change the mind, this neuroplasticity that I know you talk a lot about. I'm wondering if for some of the people listening, this is Hacking Culture and this idea of hacking your mind. Is that kind of what we're talking about? We're making something work more in a way that we want it to work?
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah. I think absolutely.
- Matthew Tift:
- Or does that kind of give you the creeps to think about that?
- Stephanie Wagner:
- No. I mean, I haven't thought about it that way, but I think the term resonates. So of course, as you're pointing to, neuroplasticity is the capacity for our brains to change. It's changing all of the time in response to what's happening around us. Often I talk about how every time we kind of unconsciously and habitually pick up our cell phones and scroll social media or scroll our email, or every time we respond to like a notification from our computer, we kind of do it unconsciously. All of these things are kind of shaping our brains in certain ways. In this way, it's not so positive. It's habituating us more to distraction. And so what we're doing when we're training our mind with intention is we're harnessing the capacity for the brain to change in beneficial ways so that we're putting ourselves in the driver's seat of our own mind and we can sort of rewire our brains to work in a healthier way. So we're harnessing this capacity to change, but doing it with intention and really pointing it towards training in more of those positive qualities that are associated with resilience and flourishing.
- Matthew Tift:
- Yeah. Yeah. And then when you say a phrase like that, those are positive qualities that are associated with resilience and flourishing, I find that there's something else about this program that helps people find motivation. At Lullabot, we have a couple of groups actually, of people that are talking about their experiences in this program. One of the things people have said is it's motivating for them to know that this particular program is grounded in science, and that you're teaching things that are based off of scientific studies and other people going through a similar problem or going through a similar program and seeing results. So that, to me, seems like it's another thing that motivates people is knowing that there's good science behind this, whereas others might enter this program and not be so much concerned about "Did I reduce my depression by 28% or so?" But they might just sort of have some trust in that system.
- Matthew Tift:
- So I wonder if you could say a little bit about how this science based aspect of it might show up for some folks that are using that and if in your training you find that to be a particular good motivator? Or is it just really like each person finding what motivates for them?
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah. I think that for some people the science piece is really motivating because they want to feel like they're sort of proof behind where they're putting their energy, right? There's a lot out there in the well-being space. There's a lot of fluff and it can be hard to find your way through that. So for some people, just knowing that this is backed by science kind of helps them to feel like their efforts are being put in a good place. Like, "I know that the science tells me that if I do this and I do it consistently even for five minutes a day, that there's going to be something that's most likely going to occur that's going to be positive."
- Stephanie Wagner:
- I think the other thing is that in the world of meditation, because it's embedded in different kind of spiritual traditions, that can be hard for people because they think that meditation is exclusively Buddhist or Hindu. And so by seeing that there is science behind it kind of removes that barrier of seeing it through the lens of just being a spiritual practice. It helps them see that there is actually something to it that's tangible and measurable. So yeah, I think it kind of helps to break down barriers for people and also lets them feel like their energy is being put in a good place that's going to help them see results.
- Matthew Tift:
- What you said reminds me of, there's a book by David Gelles about mindful work that I bet you might be familiar with maybe.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Oh.
- Matthew Tift:
- Maybe not.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah. I haven't read it. No.
- Matthew Tift:
- But one of the things that he mentions in there is he categorizes the groups of people that might have objections. He says that there are some folks that are traditional Buddhist that might say that having this Buddhist practice embedded doesn't fit with capitalism. In other words it's not Buddhist enough or other folks might say, "I don't want any spiritual practices in the workplace." Or I think his third group was religious folks that might think mindfulness is a Trojan horse for Eastern mysticism. I know we can't make everyone happy, but I'm just curious when you're teaching, do you think that by basing it in science that helps make it more welcoming to folks? I don't even know if you want to accept his classification system, but can we create spaces where all of these folks might feel welcome? Or should we?
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah. I mean, that's certainly the goal. I think that what I do hear from users is that the science does help them feel included. It breaks down barriers for people. I like the categories that he's speaking to, that you're referring to. That totally makes sense to me. And yeah, we want people, we want everybody to feel included, right? But I also know that meditation isn't necessarily for everybody. There are going to be other things that are going to be supportive to well-being and we don't want to push anything on people that isn't going to resonate with them. But the thing that I always go back to is try it for yourself. Why don't you just give yourself a little bit of time to just experiment and see what your own experience is, right? The science tells you one thing, and that's fine. But really the motivation is going to come from you feeling like you're connected to this being something that's good for you, something that you want to do.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- So whether a person just gives one practice a try and just tries it, or maybe just tries it for a month, and just see, "Okay, can I do this for a month? And what might this be like?" What's been amazing is to hear people who just try it for a month and be like, "I was really skeptical going into this at the beginning. And I have to tell you that after a month, I just feel different. I'm noticing changes." And so then they feel motivated by that. So I think really to just go into it with a sense of curiosity and just even seeing, is it possible that this actually might help you feel better?
- Matthew Tift:
- Yeah. Yeah. At Lullabot, we had a few people that after even a week or so, said, "I just noticed a huge change." I don't want to out what they said, because they were revealing personal information, like, "I just noticed a huge change in how I interact with this other person."
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Wow.
- Matthew Tift:
- It's really kind of heartwarming and it feels good to see that real change comes about. It wasn't like they had entered that program thinking "I want to have a better relationship with blank." But that's just what happened. And so that's great.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think the thing too to remember maybe just to pull out about the Healthy Minds program that's unique is that we're talking about a more holistic view of mental well-being. Other programs or other approaches to meditation are really rooted simply in mindfulness, which is one skill that we do teach in the Healthy Minds program. But our program is beyond mindfulness. We move into areas like skills that help you develop healthy, connected, interpersonal relationships, things like appreciation and kindness and compassion. We help people develop skills around curiosity. This is in the pillar of insight. And then we also help people get connected to their values through training their mind and purpose. So it is also just beyond the simple mindfulness alone. It really is a more holistic view of well-being.
- Matthew Tift:
- Yeah. I'm glad you said that too. I really like that about the program as well, is that there are other mindfulness apps out there. We evaluated those. And there are other well-being programs. The space that Healthy Minds occupies I think is unique. Maybe you can speak a little bit to that, because I've heard that a number of people say they're motivated by the scientific aspect of that. Some of the people that are working there are really the leaders in this field. I sort of imagine some of these other mindfulness apps are quoting research that's coming out of the Center for Healthy Minds.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah, definitely.
- Matthew Tift:
- I don't know if that's true, but-
- Stephanie Wagner:
- I'm sure it is. Yeah.
- Matthew Tift:
- The Center in the University of Wisconsin-Madison is one of the leading centers in the nation, right? There are others, right? There's lots of other research. Obviously, lots of other research, but this is really one that a lot of folks are applauding. What Richard Davidson did wasn't done before when he was doing it.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah, definitely.
- Matthew Tift:
- He said it was career suicide when he started, right?
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other thing... So because we are rooted in science, we're taking a very strategic approach to training the mind. It's very specific. The skills, we call them skills that we're training the mind in, and the way that we're going about that, the way that the program is organized, it's all very strategic. It's not just a bunch of guided meditations. If I were to look at some of the other competitors out there, they're doing their thing and they're doing what they do. Some of them doing it well. But often what they're doing is they're just serving up a guided meditation. It's not necessarily thoughtful or strategic around what are the qualities or the capacities or the skills that we're actually trying to develop here.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- And we spend a lot of time within the program, dedicated to each individual skill to really help you be able to develop it. So thinking about it, comparing it to training muscles at the gym, right? We go to the gym and we lift weights to develop our biceps and our quads and our core. So here, it's sort of like taking that approach to mental training, right? You're developing a certain mental muscle, for lack of a better word, and you do this through kind of a systematic and strategic approach to training the mind.
- Matthew Tift:
- Yeah. And it's nice to have that structure when you're doing this, to be able to find a framework that you can help both use as a mental model as well as see charts and see percentages and things.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah, absolutely.
- Matthew Tift:
- I'd like to shift a little bit. There are a lot of hand wavy folks in the mindfulness space and some corporate mindfulness programs and there's lots of criticism of those programs as I'm sure you're aware. I know Healthy Minds is slightly different and I think it's great. I want to address some of these things that I've heard other people say. So there's a lot of folks like Ronald Purser in his book McMindfulness, I've heard some of the arguments he makes repeated in other books. I was reading Stolen Focus by Johann Hari recently. They have an argument that essentially corporate mindfulness programs use this upbeat language, they offer simplistic sort of individualistic solutions that are in fact rooted in deeper societal problems. They call that "cruel optimism" because they say, "You can't really cultivate a healthy mind if you lack health insurance, if you feel overworked, if you never have time for your friends and family."
- Matthew Tift:
- I just wondered if you could talk a little bit about how a company or organization might know that a program like Healthy Minds is right for them. Because there's a part of me that thinks, "Yeah. If a company doesn't offer health insurance, maybe the first thing they shouldn't do is start with a well-being program."
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah. So let me just see if I can find my way into this question. I personally don't view the Healthy Minds program as being like the only tool or the only solution, right? So it is a tool and a solution that can be embedded within like a larger kind of structure to support well-being that includes things, of course, like health insurance. I think organizations that want to support the well-being of their employees, that want to give them a tool to help them really change their relationship to what's going on.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- So here's a really important point. So often individuals are focused on trying to control the outer circumstances in their lives, right? They put a lot of effort into trying to control or manipulate, and they get really frustrated when things aren't exactly the way that they want them to be. When you're always oriented in this way, it creates a lot of frustration, a lot of resistance, a lot of internal suffering. And so what we're wanting to do is we're wanting to help people develop a different relationship with what's going on in the outer world by changing the way that they're working with it, by training the mind.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Now, it's hard because on one level, you want to give your employees tools to support them like the Healthy Minds program or like a fitness membership. I mean, there are many ways that you can do that, but then it's really kind of up to the organizational leaders to make sure that they've got that more infrastructure, like the health insurance and the other things in place, to help to support as more of like a holistic solution. So Healthy Minds isn't the only solution. It should be embedded in kind of a wider infrastructure of supporting well-being. I see it as like a resource and a tool, but it needs to be embedded into a bigger structure. I don't know that I answered that well, but that's...
- Matthew Tift:
- Oh, that was fantastic.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Oh, okay.
- Matthew Tift:
- That was good. I mean, I know that's a tough question, but I feel like what you're getting at or what you're saying makes a lot of sense in terms of people that want to put up mindfulness programs or even a wellness program as something that's going to cure all of their problems. It's just not going to happen, right?
- Stephanie Wagner:
- No, it's not. It's not.
- Matthew Tift:
- It's unfortunate. There's work that people have to do in all aspects of their life, because that's tricky. And then one point that you made that I think is especially good for folks to remember is that, if your life isn't going well, you can work hard to change the external world, which is a challenge. Or you can always work to change your internal world, and it seems like your relationship to how you relate with everything. I think that's just a wonderful point and does definitely address some of those concerns like this. If you think this is the only solution or that this is going to make you happy while the rest of your life is falling apart, certainly the science says that's not going to happen.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah. And I think too it's from working from the inside out, right? When you're working with the mind, there are things that you're going to start doing differently as a result of training your mind. So for example, I was stuck in a job that I was miserable at. I got more and more clear about what I needed in a workplace, in a job to help support my well-being. But without training my mind, I don't think I would've had that clarity because I was so caught up in the frustration and the stress. It was like it's not that I was experiencing stress, I became the stress, you know?
- Stephanie Wagner:
- So when you think about some of these difficult emotions that we can experience, it's like we get really caught up in it. We get identified with it. We become the anxiety, we become the stress. So when you work from the inside out, you begin developing the capacity to see things more clearly to be able to observe your experience rather than getting caught up in your experience. And from that actions naturally emerge, you relate to the world in a different way. You show up differently because your mind is different.
- Matthew Tift:
- Yeah. Yeah, well said. That seems to be such tricky point for some folks to want to accept that they can change their mind for one thing. We're so used to talking about things in terms of, "I like that," or "I don't like that." And it seems like one of the things that the Healthy Minds program does so well is to help us rather than jump to judgment, but just to kind of notice, "Oh, I don't like that, and that's okay."
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then when we also learn about the science of well-being, we begin to see that our experience of things is also rooted in what's going on in the brain. So we experience stress. And that stress kind of kicks off the... It activates the amygdala, which is the part of our brain that's associated with the threat detection system. And so then when we don't have access to things like awareness and this kind of part of our brain that helps us stay regulated, we just kind of spin out in chronic stress. So when we begin to kind of learn more about these aspects of the brain that are related to training the mind too, we can see, yeah, there's an explanation for what is actually going on in my experience. And that can be helpful.
- Matthew Tift:
- Obviously we're not going to solve all of this in the hour long discussion, but there's another sort of interesting point that you're getting at is, using the science as a motivator or understanding how the brain works. For some folks, it feels like that can be a different way to have faith in this process. So some people, they're driven by a more spiritual sense of faith, and that being like one of the key aspects of their practice. Whereas with this program, it seems like one of the things it's offering is something else to sort of have faith in, like, "If you try this, will work." And we're saying that not just because "Woo-hoo! Meditation is cool and everybody's doing it," but that we're doing our best.
- Matthew Tift:
- We can't say this is going to work for everybody, but we can say this is something that has worked for a lot of folks and they've done it this particular way. And it seems like you still have to have some sense of faith in that system for it to work. Or I guess, and this is my question, or do you think it works just as well in your experiences dealing with folks if they just do it? They don't even have faith. They're just like, "I'm just going to do the next one on the app today and just see what happens." So could it be either one?
- Stephanie Wagner:
- It could be either. Yeah. I think some people that have faith, that can be a source of motivation. But the other thing that you're pointing to, which is maybe more tapping into, maybe for some people it's just accomplishment, right? Like, "I feel like I'm just going to accomplish the thing and I'm going to do it" and they check off their well-being task for the day. I mean, for some people that's fine too. I don't know that... I mean, I think the science doesn't know whether or not what the definitive motivator is going to be, and even what the role of faith would be in in the results.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- But certainly, I think for some people if you know you're an achiever and you can tap into that achievement part of you and feel good about crossing off your practice for the day, that's great. If you've got more faith and you're doing it because you are feeling nurtured by that, that's great and that's motivating. Or if you're doing it because you're curious and you just want to see what it's like. I mean, all of these kind of are pointing to underlying values that we can help to infuse our practice and be able to see benefits from there.
- Matthew Tift:
- Yeah. All of those different motivations. It's fascinating to me because in part, when I started meditating, I had other groups of people that I was doing meditation with. It seems like there is a unique opportunity for the workplace. I know Healthy Minds @Work is not just for corporations. It's also for the military and schools. You have a long list of clients that are using it. But it seems like one of the things that it just offers that's unique is if you're seeing people at work five times a week potentially, I like this opportunity and I don't know if it's going to work for Lullabot, of sort of a longer term kind of group of people supporting each other through this process. I teach intro to meditation classes and teach yoga and people just talk about, "Oh, I really should meditate more." I hear that so often.
- Matthew Tift:
- But it seems like one of the things that's great about this program is offering folks a way to support each other and admit that it is hard to just try and start meditating or work on your well-being or say, "I should do that." The choice of it being at work to me is kind of fascinating. I'm guessing that that wasn't just some random choice that you all made in terms of that. But is that kind of how you view it as well? That it's a unique opportunity? Or maybe you could say more about that.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Oh my gosh. Yes. I love what you're saying so much around building a community around where you're having discussions about your practice and well-being. I think that the world of meditation can be kind of isolating because it's often that you're doing it on your own. And then we can come up against experiences or things in our practice that we can feel alone with and feel like questioning whether or not this is normal and is anyone else having this experience. And so I think to be able to use social support as a motivator and as an opportunity to kind of gather around the topic of well-being, it's really, really important. The science points to the importance of social connection as it relates to well-being. So it's kind of like you're doing two things, right? It's like you're giving people the opportunity to not feel alone in your practice, but you're also developing this way of normalizing and coming together socially around well-being. So I think that's great.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- I would love to hear how that goes for you because we're always trying to crack the code on how certain organizations are successful with the program. Every organization has a different structure. They've got different nuances. Some have mindfulness groups already embedded in the organization or other opportunities to practice. And some don't and they're building it from scratch. So we're always trying to figure out what the best practices are. So I love hearing that you're exploring that.
- Matthew Tift:
- Yeah. I didn't mention this before, but part of the reason I was promoting this within our company was I had been leading meditations. I think it was eight months straight of a weekly meditation group, which a lot of people found beneficial. I mean, I'm not here trying to sell Healthy Minds Innovations, but I feel like it was a nice thing to be able to say "Here's something we can all do together. And it's not just Matthew leading the show." It's a group. It's other people. I'm not trying to recreate some solution or come up with my own reason so we can satisfy metrics or something like that. It's like, "Oh, here's a program that works."
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah. Yeah. And to feel like there's something to gather around, that's not just work. And I found that similarly in my former job. I used to work for Aveda Corporation, which is based in Minneapolis. I was an executive directory level in their learning and development department. But I did a lot around trying to support workplace meditation. I would guide meditations and that kind of thing. And to give people an opportunity to gather around well-being in the middle of the workday helps people be better at their job. They feel more connected. They feel more resilient, they feel more nurtured. It's just a win on all levels.
- Matthew Tift:
- Mm-hmm. Well, this has been so great talking with you. I feel like I want to make sure to point out that Healthy Minds Innovations is not just an @Work program, that this app that we've been discussing is free for anyone who wants to use it. As I understand, most of the actual practices are similar to the @Work program. Is correct?
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yes. The work program does have some differentiating practices that are more related to work and we're continuing actually to sort of develop that library of practices, but it is rooted in the same skills. A lot of the practices are similar or the same. So yeah, it's definitely the workplace offering does have a lot in it. That's more workplace specific. But the free app is amazing. And it's got a year's worth of content in there that is very, very rich and robust and it's all due to the generosity of our donors.
- Matthew Tift:
- Yeah, that's great. I will vouch too for it. It was a great support for me to help launch this because that's one of the things that the Healthy Minds @Work provides, is support and to answer questions. So if you are listening and thinking you'd like to start something like this, I can say, in my experience, Healthy Minds has been a great partner in offering not just an app, but a place to answer questions. So there's my little pitch for it. I haven't seen any data. I don't know if it's working. I know that the materials that we got were helpful and we had a huge chunk of people sign up from our company.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Great.
- Matthew Tift:
- I haven't seen any data, but I'll be interested to see how that goes. If folks want to follow you or see what you are up to, what is the best way for folks to find out more about you?
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Yeah. So I'll say first, just like Healthy Minds. It's on all the social media channels. So we've got Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, lots going on there. So Healthy Minds Innovations and Healthy Minds Innovations community I think are what they're under on Facebook. Me personally, I am also on LinkedIn. I'm on social media, Stephanie Wagner Health Coach. I'm a board certified health coach. I share a lot of things related to well-being. And of course, meditation tends to be my main area of focus. But as you mentioned before, I also am a group fitness instructor and just love all things related to well-being. So you can check me out there and you can also learn more about Healthy Minds Innovations at hminnovations.org. You can check out the kind of wider variety of tools that are offered in our Healthy Minds @Work program, which includes workplace well-being, assessments, live trainings, the app is one aspect of course but there's a lot more richness there to explore to help hack well-being culture in your organization. Is that a cool note to end on?
- Matthew Tift:
- That is a great way to end it. So thank you so much, Stephanie. I really appreciate it.
- Stephanie Wagner:
- Thank you. It's been great being with you.
- Outro:
- Thank you for listening to this episode of Hacking Culture. You can learn more about this show and subscribe at lullabot.com/hackingculture. Please follow @hackingculture and @matthewtift on Twitter. This episode is released under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 United States license. Hacking Culture is produced at Lullabot. The theme music is from the Open Goldberg Variations. Thank you for listening.